Metal detectors in shopping malls, schools

walk on through

by Tracey_E - 2018-10-11 11:14:50

Don't linger, but it's perfectly safe to walk through them. The very worst they can do is put you in test mode for the time it takes to get through. 

Metal detectors

by AgentX86 - 2018-10-11 12:18:43

If you're dependent,  I'd say no. Make security do their job. The airport xray scanners aren't as much of a problem but they tend to have the old metal detectors in the lines for overflow. You never know if you're going to be directed to one.

Put it this way, I'm not going through a metal detector anymore. I'll show my card and make them earn their money. Be nice about it, though.

scanners

by ROBO Pop - 2018-10-11 14:34:33

If you would stop stealing stuff and trying to smuggle things on board an airplane you wouldn't have to worry

These things do not affect your device

your life

by AgentX86 - 2018-10-11 15:13:31

I'll continue to take my EP's advice. It's what I pay him for.

BTW, I an an electronics design engineer.  I know how these things work and have substantial experience with EMI design and mitigation (unfortunately).

detectors

by Tracey_E - 2018-10-11 15:40:04

Your life?? Really?? Let's not scare the newbies and have them afraid to go to the mall. The very worst thing they can do is put it in test mode, same as when they interrogate. As soon as we get away from it, it goes back to full function. It can't turn it off. It can't affect it once we walk away from it. 

Store security metal detectors have never been a safety issue. I've set them off maybe 3 or 4 times in 20+ years of being paced. We can make them beep but they can't hurt us. 

Metal detectors at courthouses, concerts, etc used to be a potential problem and I routinely avoided them but 1) they're usually less trained than TSA and are likely to come at us with a wand which can cause problems if too close to the device so I'd rather risk walking through and 2) newer devices are not affected. My cardiologist, ep and SJM rep all told me to walk on through even the ones at the airport. 

Thanks for that!

by Tony Stark - 2018-10-11 17:38:03

I appreciate your feedback, and you are correct ..... test mode; NO Thanks. It shuts my device off for a time (unsure how long) and my Cardilogist had to turn it back on. I almost passed out as the blood stopped circulating to my brain. 

testing is not the same as test mode

by Tracey_E - 2018-10-11 18:15:08

When they interrogate they can turn it up, down, off, test the threshholds, etc. Test mode is a steady rate of 60bpm, which is what happens when they interrogate when they aren't doing anything else. It would not be turned off,it would only beat slower if your current rate was over 60, and then you're only talking for the second it takes to walk through which means at most a missed beat or two. Do what you're comfortable with, but I have never ever heard of anyone having any problems whatsoever walking through security at a store. 

Metal detector arches - fine

by LondonAndy - 2018-10-11 18:51:31

I am 100% pacemaker dependent, and I always walk through the arches at airports and some secure buildings without affecting my pacemaker, and only occasionally setting off the arch's alarm.  Even then I am not convinced it is the pacemaker that set it off.

I always carry my pacemaker ID but have never had to actually show it. 

I feel more at risk from the paddles if in the hands of an inexperienced security guard, as happened to me last year.  His supervisor was watching, and apologised to me and educated the newbie to be more careful over the site.

Fortunately I live in a country that doesn't allow guns, and we don't have metal detector arches in shopping malls etc.

Also, good to see Hurricane Michael did not hit Somerset, Florida - I would still suggest weather is your greater risk.

Andy

by Tracey_E - 2018-10-11 20:00:59

The ones in malls aren't for guns, they are for theft, and they aren't at the mall itself but at the individual stores. Stores put metal security tags on clothing, etc that have to be removed when you pay for it otherwise it beeps when it goes out the door. You can walk through those with all the metal you want to wear, they will only go off if one of the security tags goes through. 

D'oh! Thanks Tracey!

by LondonAndy - 2018-10-11 20:08:34

I am a twit, and forgot about those. Most of my shopping is delivered these days :)

Airport metal detectors

by Bostonstrong - 2018-10-11 22:24:35

I went through the wrong metal detector at the airport once-travel fritzed with other things on my mind. No worries, no problems, no ill effects. MOST of the time I have my wits about me and ask for the 3d one but good to know the other one didn't cause issues.

Metal detectors

by AgentX86 - 2018-10-12 09:03:22

Trecy_E, you're misinformed and are, once again, confusing DC magnets for AC magnetic fields. The so called "test mode" or "MRI" mode is NOT the problem. At issue is the sense leads detecting what the PM mistakes for a heartbeat. Since almost all PMs are in AAI, VVI, or DDI modes, they will inhibit pacing (the 'I' part of the pacing mode) when a heartbeat is detected. Someone who is not dependent will just revert back to their natural heartbeat and the stars would have to be in their worst alignment to have something go wrong at that exact time. Those who are dependent on their pacemakers have that something wrong all the time. An upset for seconds will cause syncope.

Do what you wish for yourself but please, at least understand the problem before you tell people to ignore medical advice. Yes, it is serious.

BTW, I'm not talking about the anti-theft devices at department stores. They are not metal detectors.

I would NEVER walk through in Airports

by IAN MC - 2018-10-12 12:37:54

This is not my area of expertise and I think in simple terms of being exposed to  E.M.R  ( electro-magnetic radiation)  . I know that, for reasons unknown, some people are hyper-sensitive to E.M.R. ?

As this is the case, perhaps it is wrong to generalise on what is safe to do and what isn't.

I raise the subject , because for a couple of years BEFORE getting a PM  I felt quite faint after walking through security entrances in some large stores. I had to endure many jibes from friends ( fear of spending money must have been causing it etc ) but my cardiologist  was very interested.

It turned out that his registrar was writing a research paper on the subject of EMR Hypersensitivity and I was one of the select band of people that he found suffering from this condition. I am the least neurotic person I know , and KNOW that I was not imagining it.

Since having a PM I now just notice an unpleasant  fluttering sensation when I enter one particular store .  It is bad enough for me to avoid that store.  Because of this experience I NEVER walk through metal detectors in airports and nothing would persuade me to do so.

I share Agent's concern about telling everyone to walk through.......   people can react differently,  some people have much older pacemaker / ICD's than others.   I see absolutely no downside in choosing to  walk round and having a pat-down.

Ian

Guidance received 6 weeks ago

by atiras - 2018-10-13 09:42:50

The written guidance (given to all patients who get pacemakers) that I got from the Bristol Heart Insitute 6 weeks ago (to go with my bright shiny new pacemaker) says:

"It is advised that you walk through shop doorway security systems as a normal pace and not to wait around in this area."

"You are advised to show the security staff [at airports] your pacemaker identification card. Walk through the metal detector archway if asked to do so, but the metal casing of the device may set off the airport security alarm. The detector will not cause any harm to your pacemaker provided you walk briskly through the arch."

beating a dead horse

by Tracey_E - 2018-10-15 22:39:28

The original question was about public access buildlings, WHICH ARE SAFE. That advice is not new. They are everywhere and they are harmless and even way back when we were told to avoid microwaves, we weren't told to avoid store security devices.

Metal detectors in airports used to be questionable. For years when others were walking through them without issue, I still chose to have a pat down. I had 20 years of pat downs. When I got my last device, I was told by my EP, CARDIOLOGIST, CARDIAC NP and SJM REP that it's no longer necessary to avoid metal detectors. That's 4 professionals I trust saying the same thing, so yeah, I'm comfortable repeating that advice. So, Tony, don't go by any of us. Ask your doctor or call your manufacturer. 

Also know that the 3D scanners at the airport are xray technology, not metal detectors, so they can't hurt us either. If they are open, you can avoid the metal detectors altogether.

The main reason I spend time here is because I remember what it was like to be new and afraid. I learned over the years that there's nothing to be afraid of. I was told that from day one, but it took years to really embrace it and trust it. It's always going to get my dander up when posts make the newbies needlessly afraid, needlessly question their doctors or medical decisions. We should be here to support, not cast doubt, for sure not spread misinformation. Educate yourself and make your own decisions, but don't live in fear and definitely don't be afraid based on something you've read here. If you have questions, go ask your doctor with the medical degree, not Dr. Google or others here, no matter how many big words they use or adamant they are.  

decades ago

by dwelch - 2018-10-16 12:05:46

I was told by my EP decades ago to not worry about walking through metal detectors.  On the trust the EP side thats what I pay him for.  I am also an Electrical Engineer and dont quite see how this could possibly put you in a test mode nor adversely affect the device other than a high EMI field like hugging a transformer, and in that case just walk on through at best what would it do confuse the pacer for maybe one beat?  Whatever caused us to have a pacer does that with our irregular natural rythms, this is not a inssue for the pacer.   Now the wand they use if you bypass, that may produce a stronger field but they should be trained to avoid your pacer, granted again decades ago had one keep waiving the thing over it, was not in an english speaking country and didnt yet have one of those many languages cards...didnt affect the device.  granted one time not messing up the device doesnt mean never will.   

You can and probably are in the right radio frequencies in daily life, but they dont speak the same protocol so the pacer wont see that as valid commands.  So then there is the relay that requires an actual magnetic field, would need ot be pretty strong and that goes like one over pi times r squared.  4 feet is like 50 times less a signal than 1 feet from the source.   Same goes for EMI you need like a gauss or more at the right frequency (like 60Hz house power) to confuse the pacer electrically as to what it is detecting.  (also decays like the surface of a sphere as far as energy/power goes)  The tube tvs in the old xray scanners that look at your luggage would be messed up if the signal was that strong (speak from experience in being in those fields can mess up the tvs and monitors but wont affect the pacer unless you hug the source).   The there are the direct contact things, being electrocuted that can pass through your body, the pacer will have some protection for that, static zaps and such are fine.  stick one finger in a light socket and the other touch earth ground and that will pass through the pacer, but the pacer is th least of your worries.

RFID scanners and such, are likely wrong frequency and if were then wrong protocol, cant see how they are enough energy. 

then there is the MRI, is the field strong enough to try to pull the device out of your body, are their magnetic fields that strong that we are close enough to?  do our keys get yanked out of our pockets, etc.   the MRI debate is one I dont want to get into, and there are too many machines out there each year with new improvements as well as the pacers.  For those I err on the side of dont go in one simply because I dont know the whole story, would need to talk to an engineer at a company that makes one that I am getting into as well as an engineer form the pacer company to undrestand the metals and quantities in my device and my four leads form three different vendors that are as old as 30 years.  (I have probably retired some engineers as well as doctors at this point)

What I cant fathom being possible is that anything but boxed designed for the task can change your pacer in a bad way as in reprogram it.  you can easily with the right magnet go into magnet mode but that just fixes you at a rate, you stay alive.   And very high electrical fields, areas with fields this high are gated and locked, so you are not going to stumble into or thorugh one of these accidentally.

Now the lawyers from all companies are going to put clauses in to try to protect themselves because a few printed words is significantly cheaper than the cost to research the affects.  Likewise Im just one person with my own opinions shared above, take it or leave it. Your EP is not an electrical engineer nor software engineer they dont necessarily completely know how the device works, they know their part how to use it and the human/device interaction, long term effects on the human/biology,etc side and so on.  They are also going to err on the side of safety.

I periodically walk thorugh these gates depending on how I feel and the line.  I usually say I have a pacer and go around, but will sometimes just go through.  Now that TSA is a thing (I started this well before the TSA) they dont like you messing around, make them do their job.  footbal stadium a school the arches have no gaps in between to go around, go through and tell them later if it goes off...that is what I do personally.   YMMV